Makayla Amaris Levitt: 00:11

Hello, and welcome back to the Humans of ID podcast with a twist. Careers and professional development edition hosted by the department of international development at the London School of Economics and Political Science, ID student organizers, careers and professional development team. In this episode, I'll be joined by LSE assistant professor Myfanwy James. Professor Myfanwy James is an assistant professor in international development and humanitarian emergencies. She specializes in the politics of humanitarian intervention in the context of conflict and displacement with regional focus on the Eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 00:47

Her work has been published in the Journal of Humanitarian Affairs, previously worked as a lecturer at the Oxford Department of International Development in the University of Oxford, research fellow at the department of global health and development at the London School of Hygiene and tropical medicine and formal external research consultant for Medecins Sans Frontere. Whether you recognize her work published in the 3rd court world quarterly development and change medical anthropology journal of intervention and state building disasters, Social Science and Medicine to her incredible lecture this term, enforce migration and refugees. It's a pleasure. My name is Makayla Amaris Levitt. I am your host for this podcast episode, and here I am with the professor Myfanwy James.

Myfanwy James: 01:32

Hello. How are you? Hello.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 01:33

I am well. How are you? I'm good. The elevator's broke today.

Myfanwy James: 01:39

The elevator is broken today. Yeah. It's a crisis. Yeah.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 01:41

The the stairs are not my best friend today, but more importantly, we are thrilled that we had the opportunity to talk to you today given your outstanding and multifaceted experience and professional experience in humanitarianism. So without further ado, we're gonna jump in. Are you good with that? Yes. Okay.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 01:57

So to let the audience who may or may not know, I have the pleasure of being your student, a matter of fact, today, and attending your lectures and seminars this term. And let me say, like I mentioned before, you're an incredible lecturer. It's very good. And I hate to sit on myself, which is so true, but I take notes. Wonderful.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 02:14

I've always had to hear that. And your seminars are so encouraging, insightful. They foster such a great environment for humility and knowledge. So can you tell us a little bit more about your experience of being a lecturer at LSE?

Myfanwy James: 02:26

Oh, that's very kind. Always really nice to hear how it's going, and absolutely. So I joined LSE in September last year, 2023, as an assistant professor in the international development department. And so it's early days, but it's wonderful to be here. And it's fantastic to work in a department, which is so specialized, in exactly the kind of things that interest me and things I work on.

Myfanwy James: 02:50

So thinking about humanitarianism, development and conflict, working with people like, Stuart Gordon and David Keane. And it's wonderful that we have so many students who are really interested in those themes as well. So it allows us to do something quite quite specialized and situating it in development studies more broadly. So I've really enjoyed it so far, and I'm glad you're enjoying the course as well.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 03:12

I am. And you are currently teaching, for the audience who didn't know, I'll do the date. This is winter, 2024 term, forced migration and refugees, and it seems like you're coming from this very heavy research background. And I wanted to know what drove you to pursue your research, what gravitated you towards your work in DRC in particular Mhmm. And were there any main inspirations?

Myfanwy James: 03:33

Yeah. Good question. So, I suppose I came to this, as the position of a historian. So, I did African History to begin, as my undergraduate, and in whatever kind of thing we were studying whether it was the cold war or thinking about, anti colonial struggles for self determination independence sitting in Central Africa and looking at the world's events from the perspective of somewhere like eastern DRC. I always thought it was really productive, really interesting, and shone a light on global events that we might often view for the perspective of, US or Europe.

Myfanwy James: 04:08

And I started to realize just how interesting looking at Congolese politics was and its experience of the kind of 20th century and all of the codes key political events. So that's how I got interested in Central Africa and DRC in particular and then I studied development masters and I was really interested in looking at international intervention in DRC and thinking about all of the legacies of that protracted intervention and more concretely understanding how it works in practice. So how do humanitarian agencies, big international agencies work in a region like Eastern DRC, which has been at the sort of epicenter of protracted violence and conflict for the last 30 years. So that's how I came to study, and work in eastern DRC and I was in particular interested in the majority of people who work for a big international humanitarian organization, who are those who are working at home, who've been employed in their country of origin or country where they hold a passport and many are working at home in that they're working where they grew up. They know lots of people locally.

Myfanwy James: 05:17

So I was interested in understanding the perspectives of those people and the importance of their humanitarian practice to international intervention more broadly.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 05:27

That's really interesting, especially you just to make sure I'm right, you are studying the people who are who are from the DRC who are working in these humanitarian crisis systems?

Myfanwy James: 05:38

Okay. So the sort

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 05:39

of national staff category. Okay. And on that term of national staff, which is incredibly important in terms of human to increase disease, it seems like when people think about joining, aid agencies, they're thinking about it through this, in my opinion, this western type of lens where, they're gonna go to Geneva, where they're gonna go to maybe, The Hague or wherever, and there's sometimes this lack of recognition of the national staff that exists and the complexities that go into it. Can you touch

Myfanwy James: 06:08

more on it? Absolutely. So, you know, to a certain extent, if you're going to work for a big international organization, it would make sense that people would think about the big centers of gravity and power. Pierce is like Geneva or Paris or London. But in reality, for most of these big NGOs, the majority of their staff working on the ground actually putting that policy into practice are nationally hired staff.

Myfanwy James: 06:34

So I started my research career by looking at the big humanitarian organization, Medecins Sans Frontieres.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 06:41

Mhmm. And I

Myfanwy James: 06:42

was particularly interested in how humanitarian organizations work in a conflict environment. How do they manage security? How do they negotiate their access? And I particularly interested in the role that nationally hired humanitarians were playing in those processes and in particular, in deciphering a really complicated political environment for foreign intervenors who needed to grapple with it really quickly so absolutely, I was trying to take a shift away from Geneva, away from Paris to look, at the people on the ground, and most of them

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 07:17

were working at home. And I think that part of what you said about, that shift in that perspective is incredibly important, especially as an aspect of your career, especially in the 21st century. And, more importantly, as I might say, there tends to be this exhaustion of both turmoil and intervention invention in the 21st century because there's been so much happening. In particular, there's been more amplified attention since October surrounding humanitarian crises, conflicts, displaced persons, and then aid and how that has been amplified, I think, in somewhat of a positive light because now we're paying attention and having these conversations, like Tigray, Ethiopia, Sudan, DRC, Yemen, so on and so forth. And it makes me sometimes grapple with this effectiveness and the complexities of NGOs and IOs.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 08:05

And thinking through that lens, how are humanitarians managing security in this climate?

Myfanwy James: 08:10

Yeah. Really good question. Absolutely. I think we hear more and more about how difficult it is, to intervene and and to work as a humanitarian, in these kind of protracted crisis or conflict environments. So that was my kind of key question of research when I when I started looking at the politics of humanitarian intervention in eastern DRC.

Myfanwy James: 08:31

And it's a bit of context, I I look at somewhere called Noske Vou, which is a province, in, the east. And this is an area which has been in conflict, with kind of violent dynamics since 19 nineties. And I was really interested in how an organization like MSF comes in, and maintains its presence in an area where there are over a 100 a 120 rebel groups where kind of every day is militarized and there are all these really complicated political connections. I suppose on the one hand my kind of answer to this was about shared interests

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 09:09

so

Myfanwy James: 09:09

I was really interested in how people working for MSF negotiated their access with rebel groups on the ground. And yes, my first element was those shared interests. There's lots of strategic interests why people might want an organization at MSF to work in their area. Yeah. So there are clear strategic interests for a national government.

Myfanwy James: 09:28

Perhaps MSF can, pull some weight in national health structure. But for rebel groups, there are also interests. It looks good to have service provision in your area.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 09:41

Mhmm.

Myfanwy James: 09:41

Lots of, these armed networks are embedded in the community themselves. So, it's in their interest that their family that they themselves can access healthcare. It might look good internationally and it's also as I said free access for their wounded soldiers so that was one element but I suppose what I was really interested in and that's my approach to this is the ethnographic focus on relationships and networks. By looking at nationally hired Congolese humanitarians, I was interested in how they made use of their really varied backgrounds, their political backgrounds, their personal networks, as a kind of resource in their humanitarian practice. So I was really interested in how they were trying to use these personal networks, that really varied histories, as a resource in their humanitarian practice and the kind of risks that that involved using your personal networks in order to negotiate for a big humanitarian agency and your employer.

Myfanwy James: 10:43

And by having that approach to managing security and thinking about negotiations for access, I was interested in how those strategic interests, but also those those personal relationships were interacting. So that was my approach and I think my kind of broader conclusion, was trying to think beyond humanitarians as external interveners that are somehow separated from the political environment. And instead to think about how they weave themselves into the political environment and kind of existing, a governance structures through these negotiations for access, through negotiating what their work would look like in practice, and also through making, use of all the personal relationships of their staff to existing political military actors.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 11:28

I think that is incredibly important talking about in somewhat giving humanity back to national staff in this form of recognition. You've also mentioned, when dealing with armed groups, the complexities of special rebels who also gain aid and there tends to be this odd symbiotic relationship. And granted, there's so many more complexities that go into the work that national staff have to do. But when mitigating crises, which need aid, because I am understanding that not every crisis might be aid focused or might be development focused or whatnot. How do these national staff, negotiate with armed groups and where in your research that you've done, the considerations or implications that need to be taken into account?

Myfanwy James: 12:10

Yeah. So I think the way that I would approach it is saying that, when working at home, national staff are doing quite a lot of relational and interpretive labor. So alongside whatever might be on their job description, they're also doing other forms of work. So they are helping interpret and translate perhaps that's literally in terms of language, but also between different ideas, different readings of, for instance, the humanitarian principles and what they should mean in practice and how you translate them to a really specific political environment. So in the terms of the actual negotiations that are happening, there's linguistic translation.

Myfanwy James: 12:47

There's also bringing together people with different visions, different understandings of what humanitarian age should look like in that context. But there's also a lot of the kind of relational labor so that is maintaining a network with all the relevant political military actors because often, even though the foreign staff are in positions of power, perhaps they're the project coordinators or the people running the whole country's programs, they are often not there for that long. Perhaps they do a year, year and a half. So there's a lot of turnover at the top, and so it is up to the national staff who are there. Some of them been working for decades to maintain those relationships, to keep up that analysis of the political situation and what it might mean for the humanitarian organizations relationships and safety.

Myfanwy James: 13:37

So there's a lot of work going on there, that goes beyond just the immediate meeting and negotiation in a particular room in a particular time. It's also, a kind of ongoing project of maintaining relationships and analyzing the political environment. And I wanted to

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 13:52

know if you can share a significant case or situation where the humanitarian system has played a crucial role in the protection of displaced persons, how that international system has mitigated the large influx of humanitarian conflicts of and forced migration. And the I guess, this broader question of do we have the capacity and why are we still struggling? Clearly, there's just so much com complex to that.

Myfanwy James: 14:17

So effect effectively, does this ever work? Yeah. I mean, really good question. And I think given that the bulk of my on the ground experiences in the eastern DRC, it's quite easy to be a pessimist about this. To say that large scale humanitarian response actually encounters so many difficulties in in practice.

Myfanwy James: 14:37

And we see this in the course. We think about all of the critiques, that the broader humanitarian system has, received, thinking about effectiveness, thinking about the humanitarian circus, elements of competition, overlap in mandate. Also, thinking about the contradictory effects in practice, so thinking about when the political economy of aid can do more harm than good. There are clearly a whole range of critiques based on a kind of post colonial scholarship, thinking about how this is reproducing various power hierarchies. I suppose all of that is definitely relevant and makes sense of some of the dynamics I've seen in eastern DRC.

Myfanwy James: 15:13

I do wonder, though, increasingly, with the UN budget being scaled back, with peacekeeping budgets being scaled back, and, slowly, we see a sort of retreat. I do wonder about the impact. I think sometimes we it takes a a huge retreat of the international intervention infrastructure for us to see the kind of impact it was having. So in eastern DRC, even though it falls short in many ways, I think the large scale removal of assistance would be catastrophic. In terms of kind of interesting or cases where we see hope, and success, I think that's a really good question.

Myfanwy James: 15:54

I mean, it depends. Some people would take different cases from today and say, well, on the one hand, immediate needs were cared for. But what about the long term?

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 16:04

Yeah.

Myfanwy James: 16:04

And perhaps there's intrinsically, critique there in humanitarian aid, which is even when it does its job on the tin, it provides kind of life saving needs. What about the longer term? So if we think about some of the mega camps in Northern Kenya or the kind of mega refugee camps that are forming in the Middle East. On the one hand, immediate needs were really successfully cared for. People have access to food, to shelter.

Myfanwy James: 16:33

If we look at the kind of sphere standards, perhaps a lot of those were kind of successfully implemented and there's been much better coordination. However, then, I think it raises again difficult questions of political outcomes or political solutions. The idea that humanitarian intervention can only do so much, and this comes back to one of the oldest critiques in the book, which is trying to respond to kind of political problems with humanitarian solutions. And that's where we see lots of limitations of how the system works.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 17:00

And I think that poses a really good question. This is something that I'm also, you know, constantly thinking about is those long term impacts. I, spoke with professor Gary Simpson, and we talked about this, the intersectionalities between this and international the government and, you know, making sure that war crimes and that human right abuses are being kept, but there's never that long term, plan as well. And I think that's really interesting. And mention how complex and important it is for us to have these conversations and more importantly for those who wanna enter this field and try to fight this good fight and do that research.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 17:46

Are there any experiences or anecdotes from your work in the field of research and with MSF that have last left this long lasting impression on you?

Myfanwy James: 17:55

Very good question. I think the kind of moment that for me was a very long I I'm gonna say 2. Mhmm. Two different moments which have made me question my own kind of researcher hat critical view of humanitarian aid. And I think the first one was I did a lot of research in, kind of, urban areas in Congo, where there was lots of criticism towards the dominant humanitarian system, kinds of inequalities that it reproduced.

Myfanwy James: 18:20

There was lots of kind of ambivalence

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 18:21

Mhmm.

Myfanwy James: 18:22

Towards the larger international humanitarian system. However, when I went to go and live and travel in rural areas, in particular in the Sisi, which is one area in eastern DRC, I was really struck by how the kind of MSF project that I was looking at, which is a large hospital in a rural area, I was struck by how it built its own social world. And so the appreciation of the humanitarian work that was taking place there was also about this being a town where everyone knew someone who worked for MSF or where the hospital had been part of everybody's everyday lives. And I think their discussions with people about, okay, has humanitarian presence been here long enough? Is it time for a SEP to withdraw?

Myfanwy James: 19:04

I was really struck by the answers there, being like, well, no. That would be a form of abandonment and neglect. And so I I that sort of challenged my initial views about, seeing humanitarian aid and its projects in their complexity and thinking about the human relationships and social worlds that they build, which sometimes we can miss in the either theoretical critiques or the broader news cycle critiques about about what intervention is and how it works in practice. I think the second moment that really struck me was when I was living in Goma, which is, the capital of North Kibu province. There were lots of debates about whether the UN peacekeeping mission, which has been there for a very long time, it's sort of the UN's oldest and most expensive peacekeeping mission.

Myfanwy James: 19:47

Lots of debates and controversy about whether this mission should leave. And I was traveling through the city, and, in the space of about a week, I managed to go through 2 different protests. One protest was calling for the peacekeeping mission to leave Mhmm. Based on well founded critiques of its effectiveness, and also a broader kind of political commentary on where the priorities are. Saying, what about civilian protection of life?

Myfanwy James: 20:15

Who's making money? Is this just a political economy which is sort of serving the interveners? And that was the kind of big political critique. But at the same time, I passed a protest of, Congolese employees of the peace keeping mission who had recently been fired because of scale downs.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 20:31

Okay.

Myfanwy James: 20:32

And they were saying, we are now humanitarians who've been working in the sector for a long time. You can't just make us, unemployed. And so I thought that those 2 protests as a story of 2 protests in 1 city, for me, really struck me about just how complicated the politics of international intervention are and the kind of unintended impacts they can have in the political economy, but also in terms of people's lives.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 20:57

That's a really good point talking about, how complicated it is for the political system of humanitarian NGOs. And I know this is a that's a big question, but is there is there a way to like, do we know the answer? We've seen the same effects happen over and over again with more humanitarian crises. Do we know the answer to, implementing long term effectiveness? Is it possible?

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 21:20

Is it inevitable?

Myfanwy James: 21:22

Very good question. The academic in me wants to ask what effective would mean in practice. Mhmm. And I think, perhaps, the most interesting thing about thinking about humanitarianism and, certainly, for people that want to enter the sector is that it is such a broad church. It is a community, a label, which encompasses such a broad range of organizations, agencies, approaches that clearly share a common goal.

Myfanwy James: 21:48

This is about shared humanity, and the value of humanity. But I think they also have crucial differences about what they're trying to do and, therefore, what effectiveness would even mean. So I think it would depend on the kind of organization and the kind of goals. I think looking at kind of a Dunantist organization or an organization that has quite a minimalist vision of what it's trying to do. So an organization like MSF, on paper, is just about preserving human life.

Myfanwy James: 22:17

It says, you know, the broader political kind of changes, social changes that need to be made to change the structural system that impacts people's lives, that's beyond our remit. We are about preserving biological human life. And if you look at it like that, you could say that a lot of MSF mega hospitals, projects they've been running for a really long time are effective in keeping people alive, in improving health outcomes, in providing access to health care that didn't exist before.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 22:46

Mhmm.

Myfanwy James: 22:46

But, of course, that raises a whole broader set of questions about what happens when they leave. Also, the limited extent they can't work everywhere. So where do you work? What happens if you're providing access to health care that didn't exist before you and won't exist after you. So I think that even a minimalist vision of humanitarianism comes up in practice against all kinds of difficulties and problems.

Myfanwy James: 23:09

And I think, really, at the heart of it, it's about how humanitarian intervention tries to grapple with its relationship with politics and the nation state.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 23:17

Yes. It seems almost bittersweet. I'm hearing these notes of bittersweetness, especially with this notion of it's great with the basic human human rights and providing this humanity, but then when they leave, there's this bittersweet moment of we need more, especially if governments might not have the capacity or their own internal politics struggles. And I wanna touch more on your consultancy research, noting your experience with MSF. And, you've explained it, but touching on on how the humanitarian system works, their purposes, I know you've mentioned humanity, but what about the principles and overall, learning about the humanitarian system, how that implemented into your work as a research consultant for an NGO?

Myfanwy James: 24:01

Yeah. Really good question. So, I started off my engagement with MSF as a PhD student. So I conduct very much an independent research project on their work. They were my subject of my ethnographic study.

Myfanwy James: 24:16

I then did some postdoctoral research where I studied a Ebola vaccine trial. And I was the ethnographic researcher, studied the politics of this trial, and MSF was part of this consortium with, a Congolese institution, Congolese state. And so I was studying the politics of this vaccine trial more generally. And through these two projects, really, one theme that jumped out and one thing I wrote quite a lot about was the kind of hierarchies and inequalities that are embedded in this way of humanitarian, programming. And I was sort of interested in how it's almost embedded in the system.

Myfanwy James: 24:53

Responding to a humanitarian emergency requires a focus on the here and now or redirects attention to the here and now. And it justifies a range of intervention models, which ultimately can help reproduce different hierarchies. And when you're intervening, in a formally colonized state, there are huge, disparities in wealth and power. All of that comes to the fore in quite a powerful critique of humanitarianism today. So that was a thread throughout my work.

Myfanwy James: 25:20

And then in the light of 2020, when there was the Black Lives Matter movement, and there was a real internal activist campaign within MSF to decolonize. And lots of kind of, interesting and and fascinating conversations about what that would mean in practice, what that should mean in practice. And so it was a real moment of reckoning within the humanitarian sector, sector, to discuss what might change look like, and what's possible within the current setup. And so at this moment, MSF invited me and, 3 other researchers, doctor Molly Nysango, who's from Uganda, doctor Leoba Hirsch, who is currently based at Edinburgh, and doctor Elena Davey, who's currently based in Paris. And we had all, in some ways, engaged with these themes, and they invited us in as kind of external researchers, to do a consultancy project on inequality writ large in MSF.

Myfanwy James: 26:14

This is a huge mandate. It was a huge topic. And what we did was have access to people that work for MSF to ask them, how does inequality manifest in this organization? But, really, what the project also did was look at how MSF has been trying to respond to these critiques and trying to reform. So that was the kind of engagement that we had as a consultancy project and as external researchers who were invited in to study the organization.

Myfanwy James: 26:42

And I think it's very interesting linking that to a broader conversation about principles. And that's what some of my research looked at in Congo was how ideas of neutrality, impartiality, and independence are really useful tools for working in a conflict zone. Absolutely central, to to perform in a certain way when you're in a conflict zone where people are making all kinds of, decisions about whose lives are worth what. The humanitarian position that all lives are worth the same, it actually becomes a political position in and of itself Yeah. And one that humanitarians think is worth defending.

Myfanwy James: 27:18

What I became interested in from a slightly critical way was how ideas of neutrality stuck to certain people and not others. So who was considered able to embody those organizational principles often, I thought, came with a whole aid of assumptions where some people were considered to be neutral and others were not. And I think that can interact with organizational inequalities between different staff members in really, counterproductive ways. Wow.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 27:49

That is that's a lot, so

Myfanwy James: 27:52

that's a lot. It is

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 27:54

a lot. And it it honestly, it's truly interesting without a doubt. I'm sure as you've shared, this has led you to incredible professional adventures and experiences and and thoughts. And I wanna I wanna know a little bit more about what would you consider to be your most notable achievement in your career so far?

Myfanwy James: 28:10

Good question. Gosh. Am I allowed to say nothing? Well, I wish that my book was already out because then I could have said my book but it's not out. God.

Myfanwy James: 28:25

Where is my most gosh. It's like an interview question that I'm failing to answer. I think, perhaps, I would say that my biggest professional achievement so far, which is an ongoing process Okay. Is about how to toe that line between being academically critical Mhmm. Towards humanitarian practice and informed enough about the complexities of what it looks like on the ground in order to make sure that your analysis is useful and valid to people who are also working for the organization.

Myfanwy James: 29:03

And I think that's a really difficult line to toe. Yeah. It's quite easy to write very critical theoretical pieces, but I think that once you go and spend lots of time and watch how humanitarian organizations are trying to work in practice and spend time with long standing staff, you suddenly see that you're far from having any kind of answer about what should be done differently. So I think that through spending lots of time being very humble and combining that with kind of academic theory, you can come up with, certainly a more constructive critique, but one that's really analytically powerful, beyond the kind of ivory tower. So I suppose it's not an achievement, it's my aim, which is ongoing.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 29:47

Ongoing aim. And honestly, I know there like myself who's just entering this this subject and the setting and talking and learning from you, trying to reach this so called Ivy tower and trying to tote this line. For those who are interested in pursuing a career in academia, or researching for organizations like yourself, Humanitarian Work, what advice could you offer gaining for those relevant experience and to try to make it a meaningful impact into this field?

Myfanwy James: 30:12

Yeah. So I would say several things. If you want to go into academia, and you're interested in studying humanitarianism, then I suggest that making links with humanitarian organizations is going to be

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 30:24

key. Okay.

Myfanwy James: 30:25

It's difficult, especially if you want to study an organization. Why should they let you in to study them? But it's going to be key if you want to actually have real, kind of long term engagement and access to studying those practices on the ground. So that would be one, kind of tip. For people that are wanting to research humanitarianism or enter the humanitarian sphere as a researcher, I would say the absolute key is humility.

Myfanwy James: 30:51

People have been working in humanitarian crises for a really long time. I think there's, perhaps, a tendency when you approach topic like humanitarianism to become really convinced, actually, by all these powerful arguments and critiques. And I think a good dose of humility to know that these critiques have been there for a long time. And there there are lots of new critiques to to be had, but also to recognize that sometimes people who are most critical and, I think, insightful on the limitations of their work are the ones still trying to do it. So I think going and finding those people and talking to them, trying to understand how and why they grapple out of all of that complexity is probably the most interesting and insightful thing you'll get to do, whether you're looking to go into academia or humanitarianism.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 31:35

Oh, so beautifully said. And it's so and it's so true. As a young individual continuing to learn how to have that humility, had to also have that empathy when, you're you're for those some sometimes your privilege comes into this access of trying to be compassion for those that you're studying and looking upon who are actually going through it, but you're in this opposite lens in a way of a sense of privilege and looking upon, to be the most important skills that helped you when you first started out in academia and your main challenges?

Myfanwy James: 32:13

I think academia requires one key quality. And if you've got that, you can go far, and that's curiosity. Mhmm. I think you've got to remain curious. If you're in a seminar, in a talk, and somebody's talking about something you don't really understand or you know little about, don't shy away from it.

Myfanwy James: 32:33

See it as an opportunity. And I would say the curiosity is also going to be absolutely key to your perseverance because entering academia requires for 3 or 4 years. So you can imagine that that that can get quite frustrating. It has its ups and downs. But curiosity in the world around you, curiosity in people, continuing to ask questions, and, ultimately, being open to changing your mind and having your mind changed is going to be key.

Myfanwy James: 33:09

So a good dose of curiosity mixed in with some some humility. Guys, it's like

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 33:14

a a beautiful cocktail.

Myfanwy James: 33:16

That's Pacific cocktail. That's the idea. Yes.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 33:19

And, if you had to give one final piece of advice, guidance, inspiration, or hesitation to the audience or students or those who are seeking out or wanna get started in this career field, what would you say?

Myfanwy James: 33:32

Who wants to start out in humanitarian aid or academia? Both. Both. Gosh. I think don't shut off from the world.

Myfanwy James: 33:47

This sounds like a strange piece of advice, but when things are really difficult and grim, I think we all have a tendency to become insular. I think whatever you are looking to go into, whether it's humanitarian aid, which is going to involve engagement with international politics, thinking about history, thinking about political economy, or whether you want to become a researcher and you're going to have to write about those things and think about them very diff very, deeply, I think we need to remain, curious about the world around us. And I see it as a form of social responsibility as well, not to shut off when things get difficult, to stay engaged, to stay curious as much as possible. And that's going to help you for whatever you want to do in the future.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 34:29

That was beautifully said. So the audience, don't shut off. Don't shut off. Don't shut off. Continue to pursue.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 34:35

I will definitely take your advice, and we also hope that our listeners will too. So once again, thank you so much, professor Mavamwe Jain, to being our guest on the Humans of ID podcast, organized by the Department of International Development hosted by LSE, ID student organizers, careers, and professional development team. Thanks to you today, we had an opportunity to explore some of the prospects, insights, and challenges when entering the international development professional arena, especially when engaging with the in complexities and intricacies of aid agencies when trying to mitigate humanitarian aid relief and, of course, your knowledge of the Democratic Republic of Congo that continues to leave a space and door open for humanitarian crises that are neglected. We thank you for your humanity, humbleness, and humility. It's with comforting and encouraging.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 35:20

I would like to give a special thanks to all of our listeners, the Department of International Development, Maya Bullen, and Andrea Merino Mayayo, all of the ID student organizers behind this podcast too, including, our co script editor and social media creator, Valentina Papu, our co script editor and podcast blurb writer, and Shivani, our podcast manager. Please make sure to subscribe to our podcast on Spotify or your preferred platform and follow us at the LSE Department of International Development on Instagram and LinkedIn. Send us any questions, comments, suggestions, thoughts on what you would like to hear on the international development link in bio as we wanna hear from you, so stay tuned for more thrust guests as we continue exploring further insights on how to start out on the development sector. This podcast will continue with special guests covering sectors from international organizations, government, NGOs, and think tanks. And the next podcast will be a studio episode joined by LSE professor Omar Al-Ghazzi.

Makayla Amaris Levitt: 36:19

Until next time. This has been your host, Makayla Amaris Levitt.